What we owe

[OrangeMoon]

CTTO: unshake

 

[Saragnayan0838]

amen

 

[Kaplok Kaplok]

A debt he himself imposed on us for some guy eating a fruit..

We might say this is similar to government debts na magbabayad tayo ng utang na hindi nmn natin ginusto. Pero who said na tayo dapat magbayad nito? Utang ito ng government at hindi sating citizen.

Of course it is wierder lalo kung sa God ang usapan to whom siya ang maykagagawan ng utang dahil siya nmn ang lumikha nung serpent, tpos siya din ang maniningil. Ot is not like hindi nya alam na ganito mangyayari bago niya likhain ang lahat ng bagay diba?

 

[OrangeMoon]

A debt he himself imposed on us for some guy eating a fruit..

We might say this is similar to government debts na magbabayad tayo ng utang na hindi nmn natin ginusto. Pero who said na tayo dapat magbayad nito? Utang ito ng government at hindi sating citizen.

Of course it is wierder lalo kung sa God ang usapan to whom siya ang maykagagawan ng utang dahil siya nmn ang lumikha nung serpent, tpos siya din ang maniningil. Ot is not like hindi nya alam na ganito mangyayari bago niya likhain ang lahat ng bagay diba?

Quite some food for thought lods

I think Christians think of the Father as a more vengeful God, and CHrist as the redeemer

 

[Kaplok Kaplok]

Quite some food for thought lods

I think Christians think of the Father as a more vengeful God, and CHrist as the redeemer

Kung hindi mo pagiisipan, cute yan pakinggan.

Pero what if isang fireman captain ang sumunog ng bahay mo, at pinadala nya ang kanyang pinakamagaling na tauhan para iligtas ka, does that justify it to the point na dapat mo pagkatiwalaan itong fire department na ito?

The only other place you would see this kind of complex relationship is between an abuser and abused who has You do not have permission to view the full content of this post. Log in or register now..

 

[plhbg1]

actually he just came to claim that we owed something and he ρáíd something, nothing else

 

[OrangeMoon]

Kung hindi mo pagiisipan, cute yan pakinggan.

Haha, in a sense ang religion ay "fairy tale for adults"
Pwede rin isipin na way of trying to understand the world, although sa modern times ay Science ang "kapalit"

Pero what if isang fireman captain ang sumunog ng bahay mo, at pinadala nya ang kanyang pinakamagaling na tauhan para iligtas ka, does that justify it to the point na dapat mo pagkatiwalaan itong fire department na ito?

I get the analogy, kaso more of Almighty Father sacrificing his only Son yata ang tingin ng Xtians lods. Tapos hindi simpleng fire dept. kundi foundation ng buhay ng Xtians ang religion e, so I think hindi kini question

The only other place you would see this kind of complex relationship is between an abuser and abused who has You do not have permission to view the full content of this post. Log in or register now..

Again, trying to see from a Xtians' POV, LifeGiver ang tingin nila, not abuser. Tapos tao ang nagkamali (sin), hindi sumunod, tapos sinacrifice pa ang "only begotten son" (John 3:16). I still see what you're getting at sa analogy, pero very different ang roles, I think.

actually he just came to claim that we owed something and he ρáíd something, nothing else

Again, I think sa POV or narrative ng Xtians is somehow "perfect" dati (Paradise), tapos nagka "sin", tapos inako na ni Christ yung sin na iyon para ma redeem lahat.

Ngayon kung iba ang POV natin, pwede naman i question or mag propose ng alternate POV as stated niyo lods.

Interesting kung malaman natin ang POV din ng ibang users dito, since foundation ng buhay nila ang pagiging Xtian.

 

[plhbg1]

Again, I think sa POV or narrative ng Xtians is somehow "perfect" dati (Paradise), tapos nagka "sin", tapos inako na ni Christ yung sin na iyon para ma redeem lahat.

Ngayon kung iba ang POV natin, pwede naman i question or mag propose ng alternate POV as stated niyo lods.

Interesting kung malaman natin ang POV din ng ibang users dito, since foundation ng buhay nila ang pagiging Xtian.

ay pang X-tian pala ito akala ko kasi pati ako kasali sa di makabayad utang claim na iyan hehe

 

[OrangeMoon]

ay pang X-tian pala ito akala ko kasi pati ako kasali sa di makabayad utang claim na iyan hehe

Kung wala ka sa chain ni Eba lods, e di walang utang haha

Kasi wala kang original sin

 

[Kaplok Kaplok]

get the analogy, kaso more of Almighty Father sacrificing his only Son yata ang tingin ng Xtians lods. Tapos hindi simpleng fire dept. kundi foundation ng buhay ng Xtians ang religion e, so I think hindi kini question

Of course iba POV nila. But it is not much different kung gagawin mong foundation ng buhay mo ang isang fire department. Just like religion, ang fire department ay isang organization na gawa lamang ng tao. At sa analogy na binigay ko, yung organization na ito ay ico-convince ka na may utang na loob ka sakanila for saving your life by giving you a problem they invented/created themself.

If you heard of the Manchausen by proxy syndrome, religious organizations operates in the exact same kind of abuse sa buhay ng tao. Not only that the victim is convinced that they are being helped, but the abuser is also really convinced that they are helping. Kahit sila nmn tlga ang nagpupumilit na may problema ka kahit wala.

 

[OrangeMoon]

Of course iba POV nila. But it is not much different kung gagawin mong foundation ng buhay mo ang isang fire department. Just like religion, ang fire department ay isang organization na gawa lamang ng tao. At sa analogy na binigay ko, yung organization na ito ay ico-convince ka na may utang na loob ka sakanila for saving your life by giving you a problem they invented/created themself.

Ayokong gawing foundation ng buhay ko ang fire dept. lods haha JK lods
Sa tingin ko di nila iniisip na man made lang ang religion lods, kasi naniniwala ang religious na literal words of (a) God or divine inspiration ang holy books, for example.

If you heard of the Manchausen by proxy syndrome, religious organizations operates in the exact same kind of abuse sa buhay ng tao. Not only that the victim is convinced that they are being helped, but the abuser is also really convinced that they are helping. Kahit sila nmn tlga ang nagpupumilit na may problema ka kahit wala.

Agreed na both parties sa religion, org at members, feel nila na parehong OK ang ginagawa both sides. Pero blind faith kasi talaga ang basis lods e. Wala naman yatang religion na "scientific" ang approach. So kung ano na tradition sunod na lang.

In summary, yan nga kasi ang narrative ng religious, yan ang way of understanding nila ng mundo. Siguro sa lumang times, kung iniisip mo na pasan ni Atlas ang mundo, kahit anong sabihin ng iba, e stay ka pa din sa belief na yan.

 

[Kaplok Kaplok]

Ayokong gawing foundation ng buhay ko ang fire dept. lods haha JK lods
Sa tingin ko di nila iniisip na man made lang ang religion lods, kasi naniniwala ang religious na literal words of (a) God or divine inspiration ang holy books, for example.

Exactly. Walang may gusto na gawing foundation ng buhay ang isang organization gaya ng fire department. Dahil sila ay isang organisasyon ang may role magserbisyo sayo. Pero ganun din ang relihiyon. Isa yang serbisyo tulad ng politics.
At tulad ng sabi ko sa posts ko about the Bible being inspired by Plato, it is intended na paniwalain k literally ng isang theocratic book for it to have control over you.

In summary, yan nga kasi ang narrative ng religious, yan ang way of understanding nila ng mundo. Siguro sa lumang times, kung iniisip mo na pasan ni Atlas ang mundo, kahit anong sabihin ng iba, e stay ka pa din sa belief na yan.

Of course ganyan sa olden times. Wala naman kasi alam sa siyensa ang karamihan ng lumang tao. Pero sa panahon natin, kakailanganin mo ng self induced cognitive dissonance para maniwala sa mga ganito. Which is fine king trip mo tlga un, but it is nothing to be proud of.

To me lang naman, there are beautiful philisophies surrounding religion. Pero kung magfofocus tayo doon sa belief part of it, it is harder to adopt the philosophies legitimately. The religion will make you operate in fear and guilt (or passion)- in other word emotionally manipulated ka lang towards it. It is as cheap as those who vow for self improvement just because they are heartbroken, they usually can't sustain the changes when the emotional fuel runs out.

 

[plhbg1]

Kung wala ka sa chain ni Eba lods, e di walang utang haha

Kasi wala kang original sin

hehe gusto ko sana i-trace if nasa lineage ba talaga ako ng original sinners kaso wala silang mga apelido naloko na

 

[Kaplok Kaplok]

hehe gusto ko sana i-trace if nasa lineage ba talaga ako ng original sinners kaso wala silang mga apelido naloko na

Baka descendant pala tayo nung mga unmentioned na tao sa Bible na kinatatakutan ni Cain. Remember sa dialogue nila ni God, he is refering to certain people na papatay sakanya, despite ang tao palang noon ay si Adam Eve, si Cain at si Abel (who was already dead). Kahit nga ung asawa nya is someone who popped out of nowhere. Baka ganun lang din tayo paps.

 

[plhbg1]

Baka descendant pala tayo nung mga unmentioned na tao sa Bible na kinatatakutan ni Cain. Remember sa dialogue nila ni God, he is refering to certain people na papatay sakanya, despite ang tao palang noon ay si Adam Eve, si Cain at si Abel (who was already dead).

this argument is more realistic and consistent with the theory of evolution as compared to Adam & Eve being the first humans

Kahit nga ung asawa nya is someone who popped out of nowhere. Baka ganun lang din tayo paps.

if we stick to Adam & Eve as the first humans then they must have had a daughter that became Cain's wife through incest

if we follow the theory of evolution then Cain must have found a girl somewhere when he became wanderer after being banned by his own family

 

[OrangeMoon]

hehe gusto ko sana i-trace if nasa lineage ba talaga ako ng original sinners kaso wala silang mga apelido naloko na

Dapat first name lang tayo, parang ibang Indonesian, baka si Suharto o Sukarno e descendants hehe

Baka descendant pala tayo nung mga unmentioned na tao sa Bible na kinatatakutan ni Cain. Remember sa dialogue nila ni God, he is refering to certain people na papatay sakanya, despite ang tao palang noon ay si Adam Eve, si Cain at si Abel (who was already dead). Kahit nga ung asawa nya is someone who popped out of nowhere. Baka ganun lang din tayo paps.

"putok ng lupa" ang naisip ko lods sa "popped out" of nowhere haha

 

[Kaplok Kaplok]

"putok ng lupa" ang naisip ko lods sa "popped out" of nowhere haha

If we refer to our own creation myth, "putok sa buho" ang sinaunang tao. Lumabas lang sila sa nabiyak na kawayan.

 

[OrangeMoon]

If we refer to our own creation myth, "putok sa buho" ang sinaunang tao. Lumabas lang sila sa nabiyak na kawayan.

Ganito yata lods hehe

 

[Kaplok Kaplok]

Ganito yata lods hehe
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Mas ok sana kung si enrile. Un ung imortal e haha.