Re: Doctrine of Creation (Genesis 1) -Part 3

[Kaplok Kaplok]

OT Hints of Polytheism​

Monotheism was cosidered atheism during Plato's time. It was punishable by death. This is what happened to Socrates, Plato's monotheistic teacher. So what Plato did to avoid the same fate, his creation account in Timeaus is: after the creator god - demiurge - created everything, he deligated the world to his sons and daughters - the other gods of the polytheist world. This to appease the polytheistic majority.

Now in the Bible's narrative, this overshadows the mythology behind the strange creatures called Nephilim (KJV-giants), which is the result a union between human and angels (aka gods children) which is found in Genesis 6, which are very Hellenistic concepts. This also can provide explanation for God's seemingly evolving character and changing name (Elohim, Ba'al to YHWH), God having a wife named Asherah. Timeaus' narrative seems to be able to provide the missing details in the Bible that perplexed it's readers for centuries.

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Fourth Day​

Let there be lights… two great lights… — “description of heavenly bodies as lights or lamps (maor), a term also used for clay lamps and candlesticks (Ex 25:6; Num 4:9, 16; Ps 64:16). This indicates that the sun, moon and stars were viewed as vessels containing fire an idea also advocated by several noted philosophers (Anaxmines, Em****cles, Heraclitus), but contrary to the theory of Anaxagoras …” (p. 132) natural philosophers like Anaxagoras who understood the heavenly bodies to have been thrown into the upper regions because of their lighter nature and were ignited by clashing together, and such like. For Plato, there was nothing “natural” about the “design” of the orbits of these bodies: they were carefully set in their orbits by a divine intelligence for the benefit of humankind.

Fifth Day​

Let the waters bring forth swarms of living creatures — (science) an implicit endorsement of the Greek theory of panspermia, that the seeds of life were scattered throughout all primeval matter.

So God created the great sea monsters and every living creature that moves, of every kind, with which the waters swarm, and every winged bird of every kind — (theology) Contradicts the scientific opening pointing to spontaneous generation of the sea life and water-birds from the ocean. Here God fashions the sea life and water birds.

God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply — (theology) The word for “blessed” is a command: God is commanding them to reproduce sexually after their initial emergence/fashioning.

If the opening statement depicts spontaneous generation the later sentence has God making the sea creatures. For RG, this contradiction arises from the author attempting to impose a theological account on top of what was understood to be the scientific process.

Sixth Day​

Let the earth bring forth living creatures — (science) Spontaneous generation was a widespread Greek scientific notion for the origin of living creatures.

Classification by air, water and land animals; four-footed and many-footed; domestic and wild animals and plants — scientific classifications comparable to those found in Plato. But Plato had four classifications: another one for heavenly life forms, that is, the gods or stars — omitted in Genesis.


....to be continued...

Part 1
Part 2
[Part 3]

 

[Charles Manson]

Ano to? Wtf

 

[Kaplok Kaplok]

Ano to? Wtf

Continuation ito nung mga nauna na content showing yung influence ng Greek philosophy, particularly Plato, sa writers ng Bible OT. Which points to the Old Testament being written during or after Plato wrote Timaeus.

 

[GildartsTale]

Nice try TS. Hilig ka paka sa mga conspiracy theory.

The authorship of the first book of the Pentateuch was credited so Moses around 1400 BCE. The Yhawist, Elohist, which designates God as Elohim, is traceable to the northern kingdom of Israel and was written 900–700 BCE. Most modern scholars accept that Genesis is a redacted literary work, reaching its final version as late as post-exilic Israel around 400 BCE. During this time, Israel was under the Great Persian Empire. And it took almost a hundred years before Israel was captured by the Greeks. That was under Alexander the Great. 336-323 BCE.

Plato the Greek Philosopher was born in 428 BCE.

 

[Kaplok Kaplok]

Nice try TS. Hilig ka paka sa mga conspiracy theory.

The authorship of the first book of the Pentateuch was credited so Moses around 1400 BCE. The Yhawist, Elohist, which designates God as Elohim, is traceable to the northern kingdom of Israel and was written 900–700 BCE. Most modern scholars accept that Genesis is a redacted literary work, reaching its final version as late as post-exilic Israel around 400 BCE. During this time, Israel was under the Great Persian Empire. And it took almost a hundred years before Israel was captured by the Greeks. That was under Alexander the Great. 336-323 BCE.

Plato the Greek Philosopher was born in 428 BCE.

Yes yhawist and elohist exist before this time. That is not the claim. It is the written text that is in question, and the mythology written within it. The earliest source of what we call OT, is based from the Septuagint, which is believed to be a translation of an original Hebrew. But this is an assumption. All we have of this from 900bc were artifacts and fragments. Russel Gmirkin points out the possibility of the Septuagint being the original, written by educated Hebrews who are well versed to the contemporary science of the time.

The existence of yahwist and elohist might be red herrings that mad as falsely assume of the sources of the bibles teaching, ignoring the Greek influence on the morality, politics and the myth.

Yhwh was is actually believed to be some storm God, elohim might actually closer to a creator god.

 

[GildartsTale]

Yes yhawist and elohist exist before this time. That is not the claim. It is the written text that is in question, and the mythology written within it. The earliest source of what we call OT, is based from the Septuagint, which is believed to be a translation of an original Hebrew. But this is an assumption. All we have of this from 900bc were artifacts and fragments. Russel Gmirkin points out the possibility of the Septuagint being the original, written by educated Hebrews who are well versed to the contemporary science of the time.

The existence of yahwist and elohist might be red herrings that mad as falsely assume of the sources of the bibles teaching, ignoring the Greek influence on the morality, politics and the myth.

Yhwh was is actually believed to be some storm God, elohim might actually closer to a creator god.

Let's just say you are true, still the time of Plato vs the completion of the first book of the Pentateuch is off. Based on history Plato was born in 428 BCE and died in 348 BCE. And the written text completion of the Book of Genesis as reductive literary work was 400 BCE. But during this time, it was still the Persian Empire who conquered the nation of Israel.

 

[Kaplok Kaplok]

Let's just say you are true, still the time of Plato vs the completion of the first book of the Pentateuch is off. Based on history Plato was born in 428 BCE and died in 348 BCE. And the written text completion of the Book of Genesis as reductive literary work was 400 BCE. But during this time, it was still the Persian Empire who conquered the nation of Israel.

You are still assuming that the book originated from Israel.

The Septuagint (LXX) was written in Egypt. The story goes - Ptolemy requested 72 Hebrew "translators" to the Library of Alexandria to "Translate" hebrew text. But according to Russel Gmirkin, there are no texts to translate. Every other text were written after the LXX, including the hebrew texts. This 72 Hebrews from different tribes, the so-called "translators", instead, amalgamated their word-of-mouth knowledge of their culture along with the contemporary knowledge [plato's works] of the time, which is also housed in the same place, the Library of Alexandria. So, yes there is hebrew culture to translate, but In essence, they are the practically the authors of the Old Testament, by filling their culture's gaps and inconsistencies with Platonic Ideas.

This is similar to a hypothetical worshipper of Thor (old myth) adapting Marvel's Thor (current science) as a part of their religious myth. Also note how other mythical gods can crossover this way, like the Baals, Elohim, Elyon, etc. then reconciled together to move towards monotheism.

Even the morality and the politics (laws) seems to be based on Plato's philosophy. I do not know if I am capable of sharing that part but I will try.

 

[GildartsTale]

You are still assuming that the book originated from Israel.

The Septuagint (LXX) was written in Egypt. The story goes - Ptolemy requested 72 Hebrew "translators" to the Library of Alexandria to "Translate" hebrew text. But according to Russel Gmirkin, there are no texts to translate. Every other text were written after the LXX, including the hebrew texts. This 72 Hebrews from different tribes, the so-called "translators", instead, amalgamated their word-of-mouth knowledge of their culture along with the contemporary knowledge of the time, which is also housed in the same place, the Library of Alexandria. So, yes there is hebrew culture to translate, but In essence, they are the practically the authors of the Old Testament, by filling their culture's gaps and inconsistencies with Platonic Ideas.

This is similar to a hypothetical worshipper of Thor (old myth) adapting Marvel's Thor (current science) as a part of their religious myth. Also note how other mythical gods can crossover this way, like the Baals, Elohim, Elyon, etc. then reconciled together to move towards monotheism.

Even the morality and the politics (laws) seems to be based on Plato's philosophy. I do not know if I am capable of sharing that part but I will try.

No, I am not assuming.

You are assuming you got some trusted sources. For your info meron nang Original Hebrew scrolls. Later the Masoretic Text is the proof of it.

The very purpose why they translate the Pentateuch to the Greek language. Kasi nasakop sila nga mga greeks through Alexander the Great. Greek became the primary language. Thus, it became necessary for the Scriptures to be translated into Greek. Read also about the Letter of Aristeas.

 

[Kaplok Kaplok]

No, I am not assuming.

You are assuming you got some trusted sources. For your info meron nang Original Hebrew scrolls. Later the Masoretic Text is the proof of it.

The very purpose why they translate the Pentateuch to the Greek language. Kasi nasakop sila nga mga greeks through Alexander the Great. Greek became the primary language. Thus, it became necessary for the Scriptures to be translated into Greek. Read also about the Letter of Aristeas.

Wala ako makitang sources about dead sea scroll being dated older than 3 century BC. Pakishare nga ng link ng trusted sources.

(Ps, I am not saying there is no text at all. It is just that if in any chance na makumpleto yan, odds are, this will not be even close to the contents of the LXX, or the current Bible Old testament.)

And btw, the letter of Aristeas is widely considered to be nonsense and mythical. Good thing you mentioned that. That is exactly the text where the "translation" story was claimed.. kaya senselesly naghahanap padin ang mga archeologist ng inexistent "original Pentateuch".
Russell Gmirkin says that the most plausible reason for writing of the letter of aristeas is exactly to prove what you think it proves. Essentially, the earliest known work of apologetics. Jews wanted to validate their claim of their beliefs. Undertand too, religious belief is well tied to politics at this time, kaya meron namang utility ito which is better called a propagandist myth than a blatant lie.

 

[GildartsTale]

Wala ako makitang sources about dead sea scroll being dated older than 3 century BC. Pakishare nga ng link ng trusted sources.

(Ps, I am not saying there is no text at all. It is just that if in any chance na makumpleto yan, odds are, this will not be even close to the contents of the LXX, or the current Bible Old testament.)

And btw, the letter of Aristeas is widely considered to be nonsense and mythical. Good thing you mentioned that. That is exactly the text where the "translation" story was claimed.. kaya senselesly naghahanap padin ang mga archeologist ng inexistent "original Pentateuch".
Russell Gmirkin says that the most plausible reason for writing of the letter of aristeas is exactly to prove what you think it proves. Essentially, the earliest known work of apologetics. Jews wanted to validate their claim of their beliefs. Undertand too, religious belief is well tied to politics at this time, kaya meron namang utility ito which is better called a propagandist myth than a blatant lie.

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the LXX was just a translation of sa Bible. Di yan ang original Hebrew text. Mostly ang nag gamit lang nyan ngayon sa modern translation is the Apocrypha books. Masoretic Text which is the original Hebrew language yung gamit ngayon sa modern translation of the Old Testament to English.

 

[Kaplok Kaplok]

Yan ba yung gusto mo ipakita? 3rd century BCE din ang sabi.. (300 - 201 BC)
"to the first century CE" implying it could even be more recent. Nasa 2023 na tayo kaya 2000 yrs old, pinapaalala ko lng incase na confuse ka sa numbers ng dates.

Mas lalo na dito,

It is also plausible na these are all translations and reiterations of the LXX, albeit people in certain groups may have added their own twist to it.
At this point, the original Hebrew text that the LXX is "translated" from is just pure speculation.

What makes it more suspect os the sudden boom of writings after LXX. Seems like certain Hebrews group really desire that legimitization.

What is interesting, these existing Hebrew text, when translated into Greek, is sometimes observed to be word per word match to LXX and sometimes, Plato's works.

Honestly, the best way to counter Russel Gmirkin's claim is to say that Plato was the one influenced by the Hebrew culture. But that claim will not have grounds unless we find this original Hebrew text that was claimed to be translated. The one that predates Plato.